“An immigrant in between stages, and places”
Anabella Lenzu
interviewed on January 14th, 2023
by Melat Ghirmay
Melat: My first question for you is, out of everything you can create, why this (Listen to Your Mother), and why now?
Anabella: I had my company in New York City for 10 years, and before that, I had my company in Italy, and before that in Argentina. So I feel like a cat with different creative lives. From 2006-2016 in New York, I had my dance company, where the choreographic work talked about individuals and society. Then when I had my daughter, my second child, in 2013 something changed internally. All the arrows were pointing outside, towards my family, my kids, my students, and my company members. I felt no arrows coming in. It wasn’t because I didn’t feel love, it was because I didn’t have time to find out who I was. It was a period of so much giving, that I could feel myself disappearing, disintegrating.
So in 2016, I decided to stop my company. At the same time, I started my Masters, my MFA in choreography. That was like a trampoline to start investigating my work for a more political, more ritual, and more autobiographical approach.
In 2018, I premiered a show called “No More Beautiful Dances.” Then I started to work on “The Night that You Stopped Acting”, also autobiographical, and now I’m working on the third one which is “Listen to Your Mother.” For me, it’s an investigation into why I’m dancing or what I’m interested in. When I had my dance company and had my shows, that wasn’t the reason I danced, but now that I put my body into my work and have become a solo artist - it’s autobiographical. I have to talk about this, because I feel there isn’t another artist who is talking about how hard it is, in New York specifically, to keep working as a mother, a teacher, an artist, and an immigrant. Not many people understand these 4 aspects.
As I get older, I’m more curious and interested in the person behind the artist. I hear so many stories of women who have to stop dancing and stop choreographing because they have a family and the feeling is that they need to give it up. That makes me very sad. I feel that society and so many institutions don’t understand this very human situation. Apart from the inflexibility, there is of course the struggle for equal pay that still continues.
So I moved to the United States from Argentina, because I have a strong mission, and the mission has to do with people like me. These voices and realities need to be heard. It’s almost like I don’t have a choice. Or I have a choice and I feel that I have to speak up for so many other women.
Melat: And talk to me about the difference between having a boy and a girl. Listening to you now, I get some sense that having a daughter actually was a catalyst for you to dig into these ideas, not just having the thoughts linger in your head, but actually start working, researching, doing the actual work.
In what way does having two different gendered kids catalyze you as an artist and choreographer in your artistic view. How have they shaped you in what you create, and how you create?
Anabella: Thank you so much for asking me this question, because honestly, I never thought about it. My boy, the first, of course he was the first one I tried everything with. I didn’t know anything about the public schools, the language, etc. I tried everything with him, and everything was difficult. My daughter yesterday asked me if I could go back in time to be with them when they were little, which one of them would it be? I said neither because the early years were tough! Being a first-time mom in a foreign country was really hard. I continued to choreograph, but I was so tired and freaked out that I let my dancers perform, instead of me. I was hiding behind my own choreography. Let them jump and turn and all of these things. I was exhausted, in rehearsals and while teaching classes, I’d always have one kid in my arms, or breastfeeding.
With the second child, I was much more prepared and I knew what to expect. But also, she was a female, which really makes a difference, and she made me see things with more perspective. And, at least for now, she dances.
My son doesn’t dance, he’s a soccer player. So she made me start thinking about passing the lineage to her as a female dancer, and the things I’ve learned in my career. It made me think of the things I have (or don’t) that I want to pass on to her, and then for her to pass on to the next generation. But I never thought about this with my son. I thought about it from the family point of view; for things like morals, values, love, etc., but I never thought about it from the point of view of my career.
It’s not easy to be an immigrant and have a family here. I didn’t know where to start, but with a second child, you have time to appreciate so many things. Even though it’s more work, you know what to expect.
Melat: What do you want your daughter, especially since she’s a dancer, to take away from this piece -as your daughter and as an artist herself?
Anabella: It’s interesting, I don’t know if she’s going to be an artist. Right now, she likes to dance. The role models in my family were women with strong personalities: my mom and my grandmother. Being of Italian and Argentinian descent, it’s a very matriarchal structure. The mom is always there, like a rock, for you and for anything you need. Being far away from my family and as time has passed, my grandmother, my other grandmother, and my great-grandmother have died. So my daughter doesn’t have as many references as I had, but at the same time, she sees me. When we talk about what it is to be female, she sees me. She sees me interacting with people, friends, and parents, and for me, it’s very important to be a role model. The aspects and values of compassion, empathy, and support that I associate with what it means to be a female in the world. Being female in the world is not just being a rock. It’s about a big embrace.
I put myself in a position sometimes where I’m in competition with myself to be a “good mother,” and a “good example.” No one asked me to do that. I do it because I’m so thankful for all of the role models of the women I had in my life, and I want to pay homage to them. They were all such strong women. Even though I had a wonderful dad and grandfather, it's a different journey than they had. My dad was an immigrant from Italy to Argentina, but it’s something about the women. We needed to be in their presence. For me, that’s important to pass to the next generations.
Melat: Did you listen to your mother?
Anabella: I still listen to my mother, of course! I call her for every little thing.
Melat: In terms of paying homage, where is she in terms of your artistic voice? Is it about expressiveness, or is it that “this may not be everyone’s taste, but I’m just going to be bold because my mom was bold”? What are some of the ways your mom and grandmothers are reflected in your art? I have a theory that artists take life and adapt it, and convey it in an artistic way, but it’s still parallel to life. So where, in that sense, does your mom influence you as an artist?
Anabella: Where to start! Number one, my mom is a very smart woman, but she’s a rebel. Questioning is what I take from her -she questions everything- sometimes to the point where she drives us crazy! She’s a very rational person, as well as a very giving and emotional person. She’s smart, and very emotional. She has very strong tastes and is very literal, much more than me in every aspect. Every 6 months to a year, she changes the color of her hair. Later in life she decided to become a makeup artist. She knows a lot about culture in general, but she’s always questioning and I like that about her. She isn’t a performing artist, but I use so much about her in my creative process and the way I see life. I’m always asking questions, always asking myself how can I be a better person and what I can do.
Growing up in Argentina, my mom wanted to be a lawyer, but my grandparents didn’t have the money to send her to the University. She became a secretary for a lawyer instead, so she ended up doing everything he did except for the signature. I saw everything she did, and saw that she couldn’t fulfill her dream. I think because of this, she always stood behind my sister and I to make sure we fulfilled our dreams. Even if it was a different dream than hers. The support, just knowing that my mom is always going to be there no matter what. It’s unconditional to this day. Even though my mom doesn’t like the type of work I do and she doesn’t understand the type of dance I do, she’s still always beside me. She has trust in me as a person, so what else could you ask for?
Melat: Coming from Argentina to New York and being an immigrant and person of color myself, I feel I can relate to you in that sense. How has your experience in developing yourself as a person after the journey you made from Argentina to New York influenced your art? How has that shaped you and what lessons have you learned?
Anabella: That’s a lot! There are good things and bad things. When I decided to move to New York in 1999, I told my grandmother “I want to move to New York to pursue my career”. Having moved from Italy after the second world war to Argentina, she told me very clearly and very openly, that if I leave I was going to miss many things. She said her mother died in Italy, and she was not able to be beside her. Back then there wasn’t an opportunity to travel. After she left, she only returned to Italy once in 50 years to see her family. They wrote letters until later on when phone calls were more accessible. So she warned me about the things I would leave behind.
Being an immigrant I’ve learned a lot about adaptation and openness. I’ve learned how to see another way of living. In Argentina, we only have one type of religion for example, Catholicism, so being here I think about, and interact with, so many different types of religions. I’ve expanded my horizon and have opened my mind on what life can be, rather than being so judgemental. I’m so aware of the possibilities and life choices. On the other hand, when I would go back to Argentina my grandmother used to say, “Oh you became bitter, you lost your sweetness, your innocence.” I noticed that I’m a sadder person here. When I’m in Argentina I know happiness, joy, and celebration. I don’t feel that here in America. Here it’s hard to celebrate. People don’t know how to celebrate without alcohol, and that’s not entertaining to me or celebratory. Even celebrating birthdays here is rare - I can count on one hand how many birthdays I’ve gone to for my kids’ friends. Maybe it’s the economy or something. So for certain things, the environment starts to shape you and I notice this in myself. I’m much more introverted and sometimes gloomy, but that’s not what I am in Argentina. It’s very interesting that the city brings out certain things about me, like obsessiveness. I’m obsessed with knowledge and I have the time here and the access that I don’t have in Argentina. When I go to Argentina they ask me, “How are you doing” They don’t ask me, “How many festivals are you showcasing work at.” So the value system from one country to another is very different, so I need to remind myself of that.
As a mother, I try to share the values I got from my country to my kids here but it’s difficult. The friends I made in Argentina and Italy…I’ve never made those types of friendships here in New York and I’ve been here 17 years and I wonder why? Well, society here pushes you to be more isolated, more competitive, and you don’t have time for anything. Meanwhile, in Argentina or in Italy, people knock on your door, “hey we came over to eat!” People make time for friendship, which is very important for me, and I can’t really do it very much in New York. The environment shapes you and you need to fight much more in order to keep friendships here. Why does this need to be such an effort? That’s something that should come naturally! I think I will never get used to certain things.
Melat: Being aware and seeing yourself, is the first step in doing something about the situation. With that being said, are the sacrifices you’ve had to make worth it?
Anabella: I don’t know. They’re just choices. Would I be happy to be in Argentina with my family? Yes. Would I be happy dancing in Argentina? No. Would I be having the same career I have here, over there? Absolutely not. Would I be learning as much as I’m learning here over there? No. There is some guilt of choosing your work over your family. In 2014, I saw “Democracy in America” by the Italian theater director Romeo Castellucci at Montclair University in New Jersey. The piece was criticized, no text, just imagery, and he put this imagery of these pioneers of the United States who needed to sell their kids in order to get tools/resources in order to work the land. They were immigrants from an island where they just had potatoes to eat. The whole thing was about this and I sobbed during the show because I saw myself reflected in the choices I’ve made. In Argentina, the health system is so bad, compared to here. Not because we don’t have good doctors, it’s the medicine we don’t have because of importing and exporting. So some people that have cancer don't even have access to the right medicine.
So thinking about my kids, I don’t know where the best place is. If they lived in Argentina they would have certain things, yes, but maybe they wouldn’t be able to read so well or have a high quality of education, because Argentina isn’t the same place as I when left it. I see the difference between kids in Argentina and kids here, so given the choice, it’s my opinion that there’s a better future for my kids here. At the same time, the family, the love, all the things…it’s not a perfect world, and there’s no perfect choice. You need to follow your heart in the sense of where you want to be. After my last trip to Argentina I was thinking, if I were to be there right now, I don’t know if I’d have the time to concentrate on my art and my work because I’d be so distracted by the events of family and friends. In one way I’d be so happy, but I don’t think I’d have any time to do my work. Meanwhile, here I feel I suffer from isolation, but I have time to do my art. So it’s a back-and-forth. An immigrant is always in between stages, and places. In between. This “in-between” is the individual immigrant journey.
Melat: At every stage of your life you have to make a major decision, you are in an “in-between” state of mind, and you have to continue to go and push. When you were first pregnant with a son, then knowing you’re pregnant again…do you feel like with each of these things your purpose has changed? As Anabella and as an artist?
Anabella: It’s weird, almost like Deja Vu. When I go to Argentina I read my old journals from when I was 13 or 14, I connect to that person strongly, I think I’m still the same. I’m still writing about the same things. I didn’t know half of what I know now, but I see I always had a kind of inner compass. I was really surprised. It’s like a purified version of myself as time passed, but it’s the same role. Some people couldn’t find their careers until later in life. They find their goal sometime later in life and vocation, but that didn’t happen to me. Ever since I was 4 or 5 years old, I wanted to dance. It just happened that I never wanted to do anything else. I couldn't separate myself from dance, it’s part of my identity. For example, if I went back to Argentina and I didn’t choreograph, I’d be miserable. Without dance in my life -it’s not part of who I am, I can’t separate these things. It’s as if I’ve been doing dance forever, yes of course on a different scale. When I look back and see the similarities, I think how naive I am - I’m still doing the same thing! Maybe the idea of constant innovation is misguided.
In my dance studio, when I graduated to become a ballet dancer, I had two choices: either continue to work in Buenos Aires and become a contemporary dancer, or come back to my hometown at 18 and open my own dance studio. So I decided to open my own dance studio, and I was very successful. The students and community loved me. I started to do things that I still do now. I called the painters. We had a connection with L’Alliance Frances, dermatologists, public libraries, the Universidad Nacional del Sur. I would bring doctors to teach workshops about kinesiology, injury prevention, and nutrition. You have no idea how many things I did at 18, 19 years old. When I look back, I think “Oh my god, I started teaching tango dancers how to take care of their bodies”. Now I’m doing that on another scale in New York City, but I’ve always been doing that. Always been pushing the boundaries and connecting communities with other artists. Always collaborating with artists from other types of shows, video clips, or operas. It’s something that’s inside me.
In 2002 I was deported from the United States and they put me on an airplane back to Argentina, but all of my things were here in Flushing, Queens. I thought, well is this a sign for me to stop? No! It doesn’t matter, if I can’t be in the United States, I’ll go to Italy, I’ll try a new culture and I’ll continue -and I did.
As I talk to you, I try to understand it myself. There’s a voice in my head that I need to listen to. That voice is leading me and I have to do it. It’s more powerful than me, it’s why I wake up every morning. If I didn't listen to that voice, I wouldn’t exist. It has to do with my purpose in life.
Melat: Exactly. So thinking “Okay I’m just going to do it”, where does that come from for you? Or is it more of a higher consciousness that’s leading you?
Anabella: Sometimes I feel like it’s something like that. It’s not a question of ego. It’s not about me thinking I want to dance, or that I want to be the best. It’s about something I have to do, it’s my purpose in life. When I’m in the dance studio and I see people click, that’s what it’s about for me. I remember teaching tango in Europe and I had a student who was a cancer survivor come to me and say “Thank you, I’m dancing again. I want to dress up again and have a life again, because of dance”. That’s what it’s about for me, that’s what I mean. It’s not for me, it's for others. It’s something that pushes me to do what I do.
During the pandemic, everyone was depressed, but meanwhile I was as happy as a clam. Of course, I was fearful of the virus, because I didn’t know what was going on, but I would wake up and I had a reason why I was waking up. I would organize workshops online and people from all over the world would tune in, and it was amazing. My purpose got stronger because of the adversity. Many people need to work with all of the right conditions and resources. They need to have “x” amount of money, etc. But for me, it’s the opposite. The worse the conditions, the stronger my purpose gets, and it’s happened many times. So in response to your earlier question, when I was deported I was handcuffed on my hands and feet. Should I have been depressed? Yes, I was a little depressed at home and then I just accepted it, because I knew there was no return. And it has to do with people. I just love people. I love to talk to people. I love to help people. For me it is very important. I couldn't do this alone, that’s not for me. It’s the same thing with my kids, I see my daughter taking classes and I cry. I’m so happy she’s dancing. You see this continuation, and I feel the same thing with my students.
Melat: What do you want your legacy to be (even though I think you’re someone who will continue to dance and create forever)? Whether it be on an enormous scale or a smaller scale, artists have the ability to influence people in their daily interactions in life. If you were to sit back and think, “Was I able to give to the world,” what would the answer be?
Anabella: As human beings, we are capable of so many things. We are fearful though. I have had panic attacks in the past, and I still do, sometimes, but it’s not about myself -it’s about controlling my life. I feel the key is having the courage to pursue what you have to do. I’m a dancer/teacher, so when I meet people I read their body language, like a scan. I don’t want to do it, but it’s because I observe so much and it’s something I do in my daily life. I work with bodies. Sometimes I see people who are sad and depressed. If all of us are happy in what we’re doing, gardening, taking the trash out, and cooking, it would be a better world. My wish is to encourage people to be themselves and have the courage to face the fear. Whatever it is, it’s important. I have many ex-company members that danced for me and then decided they don’t want to dance anymore. They told me that I'm a reason why they decided to change their career path. When they were dancing for me, they somehow realized the energy they have needs to go toward the things they love. If you don’t do the things that you love then you’re miserable. And it’s contagious! They’ve pursued their own careers and they are very successful, but it’s about care and dedication and giving 100% to what you do. So we all need to take care of one another for our collective happiness; the mind, body, and spirit of everything. When I teach dance, it’s not just about the body, it’s about the whole self.
I also write, and I feel that’s very important to me to keep publishing things. Many people tell me that I’m more philosophical now than before, but maybe that has something to do with my legacy. Perhaps my dances are about the Now, and my writings are the ideas I’m going to leave for the future. It’s not easy for me to write, it takes me much more work than when I choreograph or teach. I feel I have to put it into words, and written clarity is very different than choreographic clarity. I admire the teachers who dance and teach until they die. I was teaching when my water broke when I was pregnant! I came home and knew I had to go to the hospital. So is there a pause? No, it’s my life. If my body needs to rest, then it’s ok I take a day off. If not, then what’s the reason? This is my life. I cannot check out of my life. If it’s always be like this until I die, then I will be happy. Retiring? What is retiring? I can’t imagine that! I have many friends that are older, some teacher friends who are in their 90's. If I were to retire, I would lose track of how life is happening. It’s not about now and me, it’s about the future. That intergenerational connection is super important.
Melat: As a mother and as an artist, what’s an understanding of life or a life tool you’d like to pass along to your children? What do you want them to understand about life, as they go through their own adversities? As well as being a man and woman, what do you want them to use as a tool for life as they are growing?
Anabella: I think about the values, or modes of living. My son plays soccer and he says, “oh I’m so bad” and I see it’s about self-confidence. The things I’ve learned from dance are things that help me lead them; discipline, working hard, being polite, being clean, and being organized. I want them to have that because they are the things that have helped me. Maybe they will not help them, but at least they’ll hear these stories from me. When my son complains about having to do so much homework, I tell him to imagine what it’s like for me, because I never studied English. I studied French for 7 years in school. So moving to another country where I didn’t know the language, I had to get books and learn this new language. Eventually, the vocabulary came, because I read so much, but I never took a lesson in English.
Also when you’re making art, you see different ways of being. You see different choices people make. You can put yourself in the shoes of another person, and that’s what you learn as a dancer. You can feel your body from the inside as well as know what you look like on the outside. Sometimes you look one way that you don’t want to look. One of the most important tools is the understanding of other people, not by judging them from the outside, but by understanding them from the inside. What are the conditions of these people? Why are they reacting to this? My thought process is trying to understand and if I know the person and their story I try to have compassion. These are the things I want to pass on to my kids. Also, living an average day in New York, you can have so many emotions. You could be happy, sad, depressed, mad. Are you ready to experience this? Are my kids ready to experience this? It’s not so easy living life in America and in New York City. It’s a city with many doors that are closed -nothing is easy here. I hope that my kids have the strength and wisdom to see beyond the doors that are closed.
Melat: What has your mother given you as a person?
Anabella: I always say that if I didn’t have children, I would be the most bitter dance critic, choreographer, and artist. Bitter and mean. I could see myself going down that route, but I have kids and the kids teach you not to be like that. It’s like how everyone in New York has a pet. My neighbors will say hi to me if I’m walking my dog, but won’t give met the time of day, otherwise. It’s very interesting that animals and kids make us better people. They make us more open and in touch with our emotions. For me, having kids made me more vulnerable, more scared, and more worried. There’s always a part of you that’s scared for your kids, but at the same time, I’m happier and celebrating life, more tender, and more compassionate because of them. I have a dog, so when I see another dog on the street I say, “oh how cute!” and I’m happy. The same goes for a kid. If you don’t have a kid, if you don’t breastfeed a kid, or change their diapers; or if you’ve never been up every two hours, because the baby is crying and you don’t know why, then you don’t know. When I see other mothers, I immediately know what they’ve been through, because I’ve experienced it myself.
In the dance community and in New York City, not so many people have kids, so maybe the way they see things is more fixed. I think I wouldn’t be as open-minded if I didn’t have children. I need to learn what they learn about, and I push myself to be more creative, more imaginative when they are around. I never cared about dinosaurs until my son wanted to learn about it, then we went every weekend for months to the Museum of Natural History. I knew all of the names of the dinosaurs. Same thing with soccer. In a million years, I never pictured myself watching documentaries about English soccer teams. I hardly care about soccer, but my son loves it, so I learn about it. They make me a better person, otherwise, I would probably be more small-minded.
Melat: If you were to create an imaginary world where women’s voices were heard, what would it look like in terms of leadership roles?
Anabella: More mothers!
Melat: More mothers?
Anabella: Yes, more mothers in leadership roles, because I think they would go beyond the surface. When I speak with someone in a leadership role in the art world that doesn’t have any kids, they have no clue what’s going on behind the scenes with a choreographer who is also a mother of two kids.
For example, a choreographer who lives in Peru takes my online class on Saturdays, and she just gave birth two months ago. This past week she was breastfeeding during class, and of course, I noticed. When it came to the improvisation, I said “Take it easy, listen to your body, because I know how your body feels when you’re sleep deprived and you haven’t showered in days. I know what it is, so I can guide you in another way, I know how it feels.” Of course it was natural for me to have more patience. When you’re with leaders who don’t have this experience, there is a lack of empathy more often than not. And this is compounded even more with immigrants.
For example, there are so many grants in the United States that say, “We have so many resources for immigrants” and I think to myself, “really? I don’t know about that.” First off, English is a requirement for immigrants to even apply for these resources, so don’t tell me it’s so accessible. Now I have seen applications that accept spoken recordings instead of written artist statements for example, which wasn’t an option when I first moved here, so some things look like they’re getting better. But there’s a long, long way to go. To have access to certain circles, you need to have certain information. Does everyone have access to this information? No.
I never felt discriminated against in New York City or in America. If people have talked, I never heard it, but when you go into certain circles there's not so much diversity. Sometimes when I speak up people say, “Oh I never thought about it that way.” Some people see it one way.
Melat: Are you hopeful for the future?
Anabella: Yes - that’s why I teach! I feel the younger generations are smart, but it’s an overwhelming world. They’re very smart and quick. If I use my daughter as an example, she reads so many books. When I was her age I had 3 books, in total. She reads 3 books every 4 days. I didn’t have money to get books, they weren’t available. Today, the amount of resources and information available for the younger generation is incredible, but they also have many distractions. When I was young, I feel that I learned to dance and I learned it well, because I didn’t have distractions - no internet, no phone, no video games, etc. It was school and dance. Now there are so many options and there’s so much information that people get dizzy and they become shallow. They know a little bit about many things, but not a lot of depth about one thing. The problem in this culture is that you need to have a specialization in order to succeed. You need to know it inside out. I love information, that’s why I’m here, but when I was younger, I was not distracted, I was focused. In dance styles, and in almost everything else, I had few choices - I could only study ballet or flamenco. I couldn’t try other dance styles, but what I learned I learned well. Learning within hard limits does have benefits.
Melat: Lastly, how does Anabella the person influence Anabella the artist?
Anabella: I can’t separate it. I’m getting older, and as you get older it becomes one thing, it will not be separate. When your mind and your heart become in sync, you cannot separate.
I keep thinking back to the student from Peru in my online class, she was breastfeeding the kid and all the other students were improvising. Yet, my eye kept going to her breastfeeding, not because I’m a mom, but because the way she was looking at the baby was precious. It was love.
In a way, it is dancing! She thought she should do an abstract movement like the others, but I’m going to send her a message telling her to pick up this baby and dance with her, that’s who you are! You can’t separate it. One person and artist, together. No separation. Separate them, and they are each lesser.
ANABELLA LENZU: Originally from Argentina, Anabella Lenzu is a dancer, choreographer, scholar & educator with over 30 years of experience working in Argentina, Chile, Italy, and the USA. Lenzu directs her own company, Anabella Lenzu/DanceDrama (ALDD), which since 2006 has presented 400 performances, created 15 choreographic works, and performed at 100 venues, presenting thought-provoking and historically conscious dance-theater in NYC. As a choreographer, she has been commissioned all over the world for opera, TV programs, theatre productions, and by many dance companies. She has produced and directed several award-winning short dance films and screened her work in over 200 festivals both nationally and internationally.
