“Centering ourselves”
Catherine Tharin
Interviewed on October 26th, 2022
by Anabella Lenzu
Anabella: How would you define what is to be a “good mother?”
Catherine: It was being available for my children when they needed me and even when they didn't need me. I was always available, so they knew I loved them without reservation. Lead by example and try to instill character through fun. I wasn't a big disciplinarian, I admit. My kids said that they never felt pressure from me but expected a lot from themselves. They're 24 and 26 and doing really well as young adults. As a parent, I hope I did something helpful. My husband and I are very similar. He was less experimental than I am, but he is solid, and that was so important for the kids. They know that they can always rely on us.
Anabella: What makes a “good artist?”
Catherine: That's a tough [question to answer]. It's difficult for me not to be hard on myself. Following my instincts as an artist, staying true to my ethical standards, and listening to my deepest self is my definition of a “good artist.” However, being a good artist doesn't necessarily mean that you will make successful work or be successful. Who defines success? That's another big one, and it’s a shifting paradigm.
Anabella: How did you balance being a “good artist” and a “good mother” at the same time?
Catherine: It was most important for me to be a good mother. I was learning to be an artist as I was learning to be a mother. Those two went hand in hand; now, as a mother, my children are on their own. To be a good mother is still to be there for them, but it's different from constant, hands-on work. My expectations are more relaxed in both realms, and that is helpful. Easing off of myself was really important. The expectations for myself were so high, which is where my kids got their high expectations, now that I think of it. They probably saw me expect so much of myself. The artists I know expect a lot from themselves.
Anabella: Can you elaborate on what things you transferred to your daughters? For example, you mentioned being self-demanding and how they might have absorbed that. What do you think dance gave you, and did you pass that on to your daughters? You told me they once studied dance, but they don’t anymore.
Catherine: No, they both danced when they were young. Our youngest daughter, Beatrice, started with Ellen Robbins at age 5. That was super fun. When they were kids, we always danced around and did a lot of art, which is typical of kids.
Our older daughter Cecilia danced but was more interested in other arts. She's an art historian, but she's interested in performance. Cecilia now programs fine artists and movement artists for a company that raises funds for museums. She is also working with a gallery suggesting artists who have big splashes. Cecilia is observant and sensitive. In addition, she's looking at movement through surveillance. It’s similar to movement artists I've seen in Israel and other places where politics and survival are prominent.
Beatrice saw the Nutcracker and wanted to perform, so she auditioned for SAB (School of American Ballet) and was there until she was 13. Then they told her that her time was up because she didn’t have a great turnout. She has the same amount of turnout as I do. She loved it, they loved her, and it was all good. Then, she continued to dance with Ellen through high school. She went to a college without a dedicated dance program. She danced, but dance wasn’t a primary pursuit. She became more interested in other cultures, international relations, and politics. She's gone in that direction.
Anabella: What are the things that you, as a dancer, passed on to your kids?
Catherine: I taught them to be open to the world. I grew up in a conservative family. The surrounding culture was and is conservative. But I was always uncomfortable looking at the world through a conservative lens. From an early age, I've felt very open to the world, people, travel, animals, religions, and philosophies. To give my parents credit, they traveled widely and brought the kids. They were both educators, too. The 70s, when I came of age, was a liberal era, and many of my close friends left for the cities. We became artists. My children, who grew up in NYC, see the world broadly. The same is true for my husband, who grew up in NYC, with an immigrant father and a mother from the Midwest whose father was a minister. My husband is very open. The girls are accepting, curious, and disciplined.
Many things from dance apply to other subjects: problem-solving and critical thinking, looking at one idea in many ways, openness to negotiation, and seeing other points of view. Both the research on the positivities of studying dance and personal experience say it all.
There is a desire for learning; both are curious about other cultures and speak languages. That comes from dance, too. All cultures dance, and being exposed to many cultures' dance draws in children. Their exposure to dance as young people has been critical to their lives as adults. Now, they are contributing members of society. Cecilia knows many young artists and sees how they develop their ideas. Our culture depends upon art being integrated into our educational curriculum and life.
Anabella: Thank you for sharing that. This is what it’s about –– how our conversation can go beyond “what is dance.” We are creating and raising little dance audiences who grow up to contribute not just to the field of dance but to the world. When it comes to helping our kids grow up, something seems to come up constantly in my interviews –– guilt. Being a parent is like what you said earlier –– it was important to be a good mother, but there is always this guilt that it’s not enough.
How do you deal with guilt as a mother, and if any, guilt for both sides of your life? For example, if you stay home, you feel guilty because you aren’t making your art. If you go alone into the dance studio and spend many hours there, you feel guilty that you aren’t caring for your kids. How do you deal with that?
Catherine: I have questioned my skill as a choreographer. However, after receiving such a wonderful review of the work I presented in November (2023), I feel more confident. That review is important to me! I feel solid about my kids, my family, and me with them, but I have always been running away from being an artist.
I worked at the 92NY as the dance and performance curator for 15 years and poured myself into artists. Then, I was on the Bessies for five years. I’ve worked as a dance educator since the beginning of my career. It was exciting to attend performances and promote artists. And to teach others to develop and grow. Now, I am a reviewer of dance artists, write articles about artists, and am a radio reporter. I highly value the work of artists. I want the world to know the significant contribution of artists. Artists spark thoughtfulness. It is true, though, that I have tended to value the artistic work of others over my own.
Anabella: So, there is some guilt there, some fear?
Catherine: No, I don't think there's guilt. I think there's, perhaps, an unwillingness to figure out more of what I'm doing, but I also feel that I can't push it because that doesn't work either. Being an artist is very difficult; it’s a hard choice. Those of us who choose to be artists, well, I couldn’t not be an artist. I never wanted to push my kids. Thankfully, I didn’t need to. As said, either by example or the fact that they grew up in the competitive world of NYC, they were self-directed.
Regarding fear - There's something there, and maybe it’s anxiety, which easily could have been passed on to my children. I feel guilty because they are both a little anxious, which probably comes from me.
Anabella: Thank you so much for opening up, because we become better moms and artists when we feel and look at things with openness. When I think of your choreographic work, is it informed by being a mother or not? Some artists I’ve interviewed have said, “No, I never bring my kid to the studio, I want to separate the waters.” Meanwhile, in my case, I bring them all together. I cannot separate myself from the role. I rehearse with my kids climbing on my head! What about you?
Catherine: That’s lovely. My kids rarely came to the studio, because I rehearsed while they were in school. When they were little, I put my dance life on hold. They attend all the performances. I don't feel like there is a separation. As a choreographer, I’m interested in looking at emotion and relationships. I've certainly made a lot of dances about my girls and aspects of their relationship, although when looking from the outside it isn’t apparent. The underlying sense of them is in there.
I work a lot with women, which, on one hand, has to do with the dearth of men in dance. I have worked with men, but I'm just not as interested in the relationship between a woman and a man as I am in relationships between women. The relationships between women are central to what I choreograph and portray on stage. It may be because I enjoyed close girl friendships as a kid.
Anabella: For people who don’t know your work, can you give me an example of one of your pieces where you explore these relationships?
Catherine: I made a dance for Esme Boyce and Susan Rainey, and the atmosphere was very congenial. At that time, they would come in and just chat. They were very giggly and chatty, and they really loved each other. I would listen to and observe them, and then it turned out that they were both getting married. Then they talked about that, their dresses, and how they felt about the upcoming change in their lives. Both are feminists, and they were straight women marrying men, so I made a dance about that.
The dance starts with Susan saying to Esme, “You're beautiful, Esme. You're the most beautiful you will ever be,” and it goes on. The text was an interweaving of what I picked up on in rehearsal and Rambo’s poetry, which I love. It was a really fun dance to make. There was an underlying darkness, though, too. Then Susan got pregnant, so Jenny and Esme started working together. Their dance was much more serious and driving. Their friendship, though strong, wasn’t as smooth. The dance wasn't fun and charmed. My father was dying, too, so there was this sadness and in-your-throat distress expressed in that dance. But it was also a spoken dance with movement based on a poem about fragility. The costumes are silver.
My newest dance is a duet for Amelia Attleberry and Hannah Kearney. There was an unease between them, so I used that uncomfortableness. By the end, they worked through their differences, conveyed in the movement, and became the subject of the dance. I danced with Erick Hawkins, so I’m still interested in dances where each movement means something. I search for vocabulary for each dance that is in keeping with the theme of the dance. I still love arabesques, extensions, beautiful dancers, and technically trained dancers. Perhaps, that’s old school.
Anabella: But that’s your formation; that’s what you’re passing onto the next generation. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything you would like to add?
Catherine: And you, Anabella, are a leader.
Anabella: That is from all the women in my family; it’s not just me. We passed it on through the women. Now, with my daughter, I think we are continuing the same trend. Is there any anecdote you would like to share about your kids or how they see you? They're the best critics.
Catherine: They are good critics, that's for sure. They are very supportive of me and my dances. I used to let my kids paint with vegetables. They were nude and would take vegetables, like broccoli, and paint on their bodies and paper. Then I would hose them off on our roof, or they would take a bath. They were very natural about their bodies, as kids are. There was no shame about their bodies. They are centered. We speak in dance about centering ourselves. This culture, significantly how I grew up, is puritanical and fearful of the human body, and they are not—a blessing. Dancers experience and express an ease with their bodies. This is why the general public is often curious about dancers and attracted to them.
Catherine Tharin read an article about the Jose Limon dance company in high school, was curious, and traveled to Chicago to see the company. As a result, Catherine decided to become a dancer. After studying with Nancy Meehan (a former member of the Erick Hawkins Dance Company) at the American Dance Festival during her college years at Connecticut College, she pursued dancing with Erick Hawkins. Eventually, she joined Hawkins' company and danced with the company from 1988 -1994, touring nationally and internationally. She was a senior adjunct professor for 20 years at Iona College, and 92Y's Dance and Performance Curator, a position she held for 15 years until 2020. She continues to teach the Hawkins technique. She reviews dance and edits for The Dance Enthusiast and writes articles on dance for Side of Culture. Tharin has shown her choreography primarily in NYC.
Originally from Argentina, Anabella Lenzu is a dancer, choreographer, scholar & educator with over 30 years of experience working in Argentina, Chile, Italy, and the USA. Lenzu directs her own company, Anabella Lenzu/DanceDrama (ALDD), which since 2006 has presented 400 performances, created 15 choreographic works, and performed at 100 venues, presenting thought-provoking and historically conscious dance-theater in NYC. As a choreographer, she has been commissioned all over the world for opera, TV programs, theatre productions, and by many dance companies. She has produced and directed several award-winning short dance films and screened her work in over 200 festivals both nationally and internationally.