“self-consciousness within the birth process”
Heather Robles
Interviewed on August 24th, 2022
by Anabella Lenzu
Anabella: Thank you so much Heather for being here and for collaborating with this project “Listen to Your Mother.” These interviews will help me figure out this puzzle of how to talk about being female and being a mother here. So why don’t you introduce yourself; Who is Heather?
Heather: I really love people. I am a nondisabled queer Latinx cis woman of Indigenous Mexican descent. I'm a third-generation daughter and the oldest sister. I'm a Leo Sun, Taurus Moon, and a Scorpio rising, and I’m 36 years old. I’ve been a certified birth doula for about seven years, work I continued during the pandemic by attending births virtually, which was a different experience. I’m also a dancer, a choreographer, a teacher, and a teaching artist. I’m also the Executive Director of The Bessie Awards.
Anabella: I know other dancers and choreographers who have chosen to be a doula. I want to know more about how you discovered this seven years ago. How was your journey?
Heather: It makes sense to me that dancers become doulas. Whether they are birth doulas, abortion doulas or end-of-life doulas, it makes sense because I think dancers are able to listen so deeply and bring their full selves to that kind of work. I’m really glad that dancers want to do that kind of work because I think they become some of the best at it. I discovered it because my friend became pregnant and she asked me to be the godmother, and I said ‘Great!’ I asked “How are you going to have your baby? What books are you reading? What videos are you watching?” She said, “Books? I’m not reading any books, I’m just going to go to the hospital and have the baby.” That surprised me, so I decided to read books so that I would understand what she was going to be going through so that I could support her.
First of all, I was terrified of birth for many years and even told my mom that I never wanted to have kids for a while. My mom had me and my brothers at home with midwives in Kansas City, Missouri. It was illegal to practice midwifery there. My mom had kept an audio recording of my youngest brother’s birth which she played for me and my brothers once, and it did something to me. I became utterly terrified, hearing my mother in so much pain. Making those sounds, you know, I heard a helpless quality to it and I think I was 12 when I heard that, so from that moment on I became terrified of childbirth.
When my friend was pregnant I remember reading stories of women who had given birth at home like my mom did. These women’s stories were of natural births, and they talked about having pleasurable, sometimes psychedelic experiences in birth. Some even had orgasms as they were giving birth. The birthers described doing movement rituals with their bodies to steady themselves while giving birth. They described coming out on the other side feeling expanded. From these stories, I fell in love with learning about birth. I told a friend about this and she said, “Well you know my daughter’s pregnant, and she has a birth doula.” I said, “What’s that?” She told me it's someone who’s like your coach through the process, and I thought it was the most bougie thing I had ever heard of. My friend said that I should be a doula since I was so interested in birth, and something clicked when she said that. I started researching more about it. I learned that doulas greatly improve birth outcomes and can be a huge support to birthers and their families. So I searched for a certification program, found my trainer Michelle L’Esperance, a midwife and doula, and found her website exactly in alignment with who I am and what I believe in. I trained with her in Northampton, and after a year of study and attending births, completed my certification. Before I even attended training though, I attended my first birth for a friend of mine who heard that I was interested in birth work. She said, “Hey I’m pregnant, do you want to get your feet wet as my doula?” And so I did. When I attended her birthing time, I felt like everything in my whole life had prepared me for that moment. I never expected birthwork would become part of my life, but it has become a huge part of it. It's very much something I love to do and why I’m on this earth.
Anabella: Wow, a journey from fear to joy! You were so terrified at 12, and then you were so curious about it, a curiosity to discover life. What do you feel is your job when you help someone to have a baby and see them through that transition? Is it anything like when you are training as a dancer to be in harmony with your body, even through pain? What do you think about that?
Heather: As dancers, we sometimes have intense physical experiences of effort that we know we can steer towards feelings of pleasure even amidst that intensity. My job as a doula is being a nonmedical informational, emotional, and physical support person. When I’m at a birth, what I’m thinking about is being present with the birther and their partner, family, or team, if they have them. If they don’t have a team, I might be their full team. However their birth team is structured, and I’m part of and/or supporting it. I ask the birther what their plan is, we create a plan if there isn’t one, and I give them information along the way and support in what they want to do. I also give them information about options they might not even be aware of.
I say “birther” rather than “woman” or “mother” because all genders can have babies, and not all who birth identify as or become a parent. Sometimes we practice and roleplay labor positions. We might practice swaying side to side with me or with their support person, partner, or parent. We’ll try positions lying down, and I’ll prop them with pillows if they know they’re going to want an epidural. We practice moving from side to side so that there is some space between their knees and some movement in their pelvis.
The most challenging position for birth is the one that everyone knows, giving birth on your back, but there are so many other options for laboring and birthing. Because of gravity, and because you’re moving your bones, the baby can have an easier pathway for shifting and descending. I’m physically with birthers from a certain stage of their labor. I try to get there when they are in active labor rather than the beginning stage of labor, to provide my best services. However, I’ve spent three days at births before when the birther thought they were in active labor and they were in fact in the very early stages.
Anabella: How many births have you assisted?
Heather: Eight so far. I would really like to attend eight births a year. That would be my goal.
Anabella: Do they contact you, or you are finding them somehow?
Heather: I’ve been really lucky, because all my friends got pregnant at the time I decided to become a doula, along with some referrals through the grapevine. I have a doula on Instagram and Facebook, too, under Our Birth Doula.
Anabella: I used to babysit the child of Gabriella Ammann, a choreographer and dancer, in 1999, when I came to study at Julliard. Later, when I came to the United States in 2005, she was already a doula. I became pregnant in 2007, called her, and she coached me. Actually, I called two other pregnant friends, and she did a workshop for us. She didn’t attend our birth, but the thing I’m so thankful for is that when I was terrified, she lent us books and videos and training, and all my fears disappeared. I didn’t know that birth could be joyful. Again, it’s about transforming pain into pleasure. Choreographically speaking, this job must have changed you as a person, in the way that you see bodies in space when you choreograph and dance. Tell me more about that change.
Heather: Well, I’m working on a piece that is very much inspired by this work called Womb Creature. We are exploring the idea of “Wombtopia”, what it would be like to live there, and what kind of creatures we would each be if living there was our reality.
Birth work has really changed everything. Even my body changed. I grew a belly immediately. You know, I’m not mad about it. Moving through space has felt different. You know how, as dancers, how we can feel the inner thigh and spine connection? I feel my vulva-heart and vulva-throat connection now. I’m exploring it all the time in my movement and in life, and it just feels so beautiful. I wish everyone could have this kind of experience. Before, I had rejected these feelings, or was embarrassed by them, and that’s not a thing anymore. I feel like I’ve involved all of me now in what I do.
I’ve observed so much self-consciousness within the birth process for birthers around body, shame, and feeling exposed and vulnerable. Part of my job is to help people feel comfortable, safe, and supported the entire time. When someone feels safe, they can thrive and be the powerful person they are. So that’s also what I’m always thinking about. I ask, “What makes you feel safe, what makes you feel not safe?” We also talk about trauma, we talk about triggers. I ask how they want to be touched or not, things that I should say or not say. If it's a first-time birther, I ask how they like to be partnered when they’re sick, or how they like to be partnered when they feel overwhelmed, so that I know more about how to be present with them when they’re in the heightened state of labor.
Anabella: This is a lot to take on, but I imagine each of the individuals you work with also give you strength in return. Like a circle, or energy exchange. So much energy and courage.
Heather: I used to think I couldn’t be a doula because I haven’t given birth myself yet but I realized quickly that it isn’t true. People wanted me to be there. Having someone who believes that you can go through the process powerfully, supporting you, that can make all of the difference. That’s applicable to all kinds of things. If you don’t know something is possible, how are you going to believe you can do it?
Anabella: Very powerful! Of course, I remember walking out of the hospital after having my first child and understanding this relationship you talked about in a new way, like gravity. The presence of the world changed completely, because of this new life. It's an understanding of how birth is everything, and through birth, there is also the risk of death. How is it for you, this relationship between life and death?
Heather: When I decided I wanted to be a birth doula, both of my grandmothers started dying, and I ended up being part of the “end-of-life team” for them. What I discovered is that the end-of-life cycles are very similar to birth cycles. There are a lot of the same sounds, a lot of the same ways you need to be present with people, listening. And there is also a lot of physically caring for people. All of what I learned in my birth doula training I was able to use to support my grandmothers. This might be the first time I can say this without crying because my grandmothers were my favorite people.
There is something I think about in moments of extreme intensity and transition, which I learned from the ocean. When I’m in the ocean and I have my feet completely planted in the sand, if I’m trying to resist the waves as they come, I will receive the full power of the waves and they will crash into me, thundering through my bones. I’ll get water in my nose, and I’ll be wrecked. But if I let go and I surrender to the waves, even if I go under the wave, over the wave, or am part of it, it’s a completely different experience. It can even be joyous, fun, beautiful, and I can float. I think there’s a similarity when it comes to all sorts of transitions in life where we are being expanded more than ever before. It is certainly applicable to contractions in labor. When there isn’t a resistance to a contraction, things tend to open more and it can even be experienced in a different way.
Anabella: I agree. I saw colors and shapes during labor. When they were telling me “It's coming now!” I surrendered because I knew it was coming. There’s also timing and counting, which is super important for us as dancers. The beat, you know -it kept me in the rhythm. Counting and breathing, the idea of repetition, it was like a mantra. It was something I could grab onto.
Heather: Yes! I’m working on trying to use what I learn in dance, in birth work.
Anabella: Part of this project is talking to mothers who are immigrants, and you are third generation here in the United States. I’m very interested in how knowledge is passed on, in your case from your grandmother. How do you feel about the female lineage in the family?
In my case, it's very important to me that my kids speak Spanish. I fight with them a lot because it's about a different way of thinking. What do you think is your legacy to continue when you have kids, or with your cousins or nieces…
Heather: Oh man! I feel like the legacy for me to continue is of strong women. The women in my family are strong on both sides. I’m third generation on my dad’s side who were from Mexico. From my mom's side, I don’t know what generation but they’ve been in the United States for a few centuries. They were originally from Britain, Norway, and Ireland. On both sides of my family, the women are very strong. My great-grandmother on my dad’s side, when her husband died and she had eight children, she was in Kansas, didn’t speak English, didn’t have support or resources, and put all of her children into orphanages as she couldn’t afford to keep them. She started cleaning houses for people, and she had one day off a month. She only made enough money to visit one child per month and all of her kids were in different orphanages, so her kids saw her once a year pretty much until they were adults. That must’ve been the hardest thing, the hardest choice for my great-grandmother to make. She was resilient. I met her when I was very young. It’s funny, when my mom was pregnant with my youngest brother she had a dream that this same great-grandmother had just passed away, and that she was going up while my youngest brother was coming down. She woke up to a call that my great-grandmother had passed, and then my mom immediately went into labor with my youngest brother. And you know my grandmother on my dad’s side, she was also very strong. I think I was six years old when she left a very fraught marriage with my grandfather. Years later I started interviewing her for a family documentary and asked, “Do you think you’ll ever date again?” She said, “Nooo! All these older men, all they care about is you bringing them their tortilla. I don’t need that!” My grandmother on my mom’s side was an artist and she is the reason for so much joy in my life and that of many in our family. She always showed us how to think creatively, and that anything was possible. My mom instilled this in me, too. My mom can literally do anything and is always showing me that. She constantly helps me find possibility, even when I think there is none. My grandmothers and great-grandmothers lived alone, mostly widowed, some into their 90s. They were super independent, strong, and didn't want to be coddled. No one could tell them what to do! And that’s in me, too.
I think what I’m responsible for is to live my life in freedom because there’s so much they were not able to do, they couldn’t afford to do, didn’t have the language, the rights, the support, or the permission from their husbands for. My grandmothers were mostly not allowed to work because their husbands wouldn’t allow it. They weren’t allowed to go to school because their husbands wouldn’t allow it. Some of them weren’t allowed to drive either, for the same reason. There are so many things that I am grateful for because I feel like I am the product of my grandmother’s resilience. I’m something they wanted to have happen. My grandma on my mom’s side once said to me, “If I could do it all over again, I would be like you and I would travel and I would do what I wanted to do, and I wouldn’t get married. You just take your time!”
Anabella: Yes, amazing! I see it from the other side too. I don’t know what my daughter will do. You plant the seeds and try to give the best advice. But maybe she won’t listen to her mother or grandmother, and she takes her own path. It’s her choice in the end. Listening to your mother’s advice is very powerful. That’s when you get to know your past and ancestors. That’s why this project is important to me, because it is about knowing where we come from.
My dad was Italian, but he never spoke Italian in Argentina because the teachers and the society thought a kid would get confused speaking two languages at the same time. So he was Italian, but never spoke Italian. When we are thinking about past generations, we must take into account how society and culture played an important role, especially in the United States, which is so confusing because there are so many different cultures. Does that sound right to you?
Heather: Mmm. I had a whole journey when it comes to my ancestors, culture, and identity. My Mexican side of the family tried really hard to forget their past, and they made it happen. They were Indigenous from Mexico but worked so hard to integrate, that I can’t even figure out what tribes we came from, and I’ve been working on it since 2013. My cousins and I care deeply about this, but my grandmother’s generation doesn’t want to talk about it for the most part. My great-grandparents spoke Spanish, but they did not teach my dad’s generation Spanish, because they wanted their children to assimilate, to blend in. They thought doing so was necessary to be successful. My grandfather who was raised in a catholic orphanage would get beat up when he would speak Spanish.
Anabella: There are so many things to talk about.
Heather: About listening to your mother… I’ve been thinking a lot about being in union with my ancestors, in the past and also in the future. I’ve been thinking about time, and how they say it's more like a circle, even though we experience it in more of a linear fashion. I’ve been really running with that idea and seeing if I can be in conversation with me that exists at all times- connecting with the child that I was, and also the woman I will become. I imagine being connected in all directions, past, present, and future. The children I will have someday, my mom and her mom and her mom. I feel through our stories. I talk to my mom about so many things that my grandmothers went through, and how so much trauma has actually stopped with me. That’s because my mom made that happen, and protected me fiercely. I am very grateful that I had a thriving childhood and my parents poured so much love into me. I am so lucky for that.
I want to say that my listening to my mom, to my grandmothers, this lineage… it almost feels like I’m listening to the children they were. There is a playfulness, curiosity, and wild desire to experience life. I’m listening to their messages of this while trying to pave my own way in the world.
Anabella: Thank you so much Heather for your inspiration! I can see this union between body, mind, and spirit when you say that it's coming through this lineage, coming through listening. But it also comes through how you listen and how you observe all these female roles and stories that make you who you are. How do you decide what you listen to, and where these speeches are coming from?
Heather: I think about taking the nuggets of wisdom while straining out the things that are often ingrained female conditioning. Each generation has had to deal with so much and had to survive in different ways. Though the world is always changing, I think it’s hard not to pass down conditioning. I sometimes think of a cheesecloth straining out the information that doesn’t serve me, while having compassion for all the generations before me who did not have the freedom I do now. I think that if the women in my lineage were all born now, we would all be having a wild adventure together, and there might be many ideas we’d unsubscribe from in pursuit of the truest lives we could imagine.
Anabella: Thank you so much!
Heather Robles is a nondisabled queer Latinx cis woman of Indigenous Mexican descent who lives on the stolen land of the Lenape and Canarsie peoples in what is colonially called Brooklyn. She is the Founder and Artistic Executive Director of Alma Dance Company. As a choreographer and performer, she has worked with many artists including Yvonne Rainer, Sidra Bell, Pavel Zuštiak, Nathan Trice, DANCENOISE, André M. Zachery, Buglisi Dance Theater, Fredrick Earl Mosley, Suzzanne Ponomarenko Dance, and The Equus Projects. She is the Executive Director of the New York Dance and Performance Awards, The Bessies, and a certified birth doula at Our Birth Doula. Heather is also a dance educator, teaching artist, producer, and advocate for mental health in the dance field.
Anabella Lenzu: Originally from Argentina, Anabella Lenzu is a dancer, choreographer, scholar & educator with over 30 years of experience working in Argentina, Chile, Italy, and the USA. Lenzu directs her own company, Anabella Lenzu/DanceDrama (ALDD), which since 2006 has presented 400 performances, created 15 choreographic works, and performed at 100 venues, presenting thought-provoking and historically conscious dance-theater in NYC. As a choreographer, she has been commissioned all over the world for opera, TV programs, theatre productions, and by many dance companies. She has produced and directed several award-winning short dance films and screened her work in over 200 festivals both nationally and internationally.