“We must value the work at home, the invisible work”
IrÉne Hutman
Interviewed on November 11th, 2022
by Anabella Lenzu
Anabella: Thank you so much, Irene. I didn't know that you were a mom. You told me that you keep things very separate. How come?
Irene: I don't have a simple answer for that. For me, it's much easier that way. When I go into the studio or when I work professionally, I don't bring my family into that equation and vice versa, whether it's good or bad I don’t know. I have an adopted son who is 22 years old, he was adopted from birth. During the adoption process, I was in Portland Oregon with my husband's family for a week and at the beach for a weekend. When we came back to Portland, that morning, I was supposed to have a meeting with Kristy Edmunds at PICA (Portland Institute of Contemporary Art.) I was going to pitch my tango project to her, but when we woke up, listening to our phone messages we had a surprise. The first message said, “We are going to the hospital, but don't worry, don't worry.” The next text was, “She has a little pain, but don't worry. And the third one was, “It's a boy.” John and his sister went out shopping, because we were leaving on a red eye that day, and I went ahead to Kristy Edmunds. The first thing I said was, “I'm a mom.” And then we spent the whole time talking about motherhood. I still feel very warm about it. I mean, she's an excellent producer, presenter, thinker, and community organizer, caring for different kinds of environments, so it was nice to share this moment with her somehow. So, of course, I wanted to let you know when you started talking about pregnancy since I had never been pregnant, but when I laid Karl on my stomach, I could feel him in my body, it was almost like he came from me even though I didn't do those nine months. It's been a very interesting journey.
Anabella: How old is he now?
Irene: 22.
Anabella: Irene, you said for you it was separate, how do you make it work, because it's very hard on you? I always have to bring my kids to rehearsal and it’s a mess, but I couldn’t afford to pay a babysitter. I have two kids, so I would bring legos and books, but it was a mess. How did you do it?
Irene: When he was small, it was okay. I traveled daily from Brooklyn to my Manhattan-rented studios with him in the Baby-Björn in front, training clothes, etc. in my backpack and my video equipment on my shoulders – it was a haul. For his stuff, I had a sheep skin— one of those things we have in Sweden - toys, etc. I just put him down and he was happy. It was no problem when he was that small, but when he started to crawl it became very difficult.
I started working on a new project that’s when he crawled right into the center disrupting the flow etc. For this project, the funding did not come through, and as we all go through this disappointment you commonly just go “Okay, I'm going to do more fundraising, I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do that.” But, in this instant, I just felt the air go out of me. So, instead, I put the project down, I am still thinking about this unfinished project – I had such a beautiful team of dancers working with me. I miss them.
It was a dual decision to stop since we couldn't afford a babysitter, and I also wanted to spend more time with Karl, plus I had this weird thing, thinking about the future, where I did not want to blame anyone else for his behavior. I live in Brooklyn, close to the water, Columbia Waterfront, between Red Hook and Brooklyn Heights, and we have a lot of playgrounds around there. I used to bop from one playground to the other, interacting with different types of babysitters or different babysitting groups from different countries, everybody thought that I was the babysitter since Karl is biracial. I decided to take a year off, then one year became two, and so on. But, the opera offers came in from Sweden and that was kind of amazing because I could say yes to that work. In opera, you stay for six to eight weeks on a project, and you get your own apartment. So, I could bring Karl (until he was in kindergarten), and I brought my mom as a babysitter (there were a lot of evening rehearsals), a win-win for us all. It was a beautiful arrangement of being together for all three of us and getting to know each other. Since I live here in NY and my mom lives in Sweden, this period cemented a relationship between Karl and my mother that would never have happened otherwise, and it was also good for our relationship – mother to mother. I had different daycares there as well, he needed to be with other kids. I remember one daycare that was 20 minutes away, on a farm with five or six kids. It was winter and it was kind of amazing to see him communicate and integrate with these other kids, having fun in the snow and visiting the cows, everything that I couldn't give him with my lifestyle here in NYC. He really gained and learned something that is still in him today.
You're working so intensely in Opera, including evenings, that's why my mom was with us, it could not have happened without her support - but then in kindergarten that all stopped - by law, if you want him in school, you could not take him in and out of his learning environment. - so then I had to be here in NYC as well. It is kind of a mess being a mom if you don't have the means and/or support.
Anabella: Irene, I always ask this question, but what do you consider to be a “good mother”?
Irene: I never really thought about that. We all know what a bad mother is: a mother that punishes, a mother that is a sole ruler and doesn't allow anything, and a mother that doesn’t care. I once saw a mother with a four-year-old girl who was eating a bagel, the girl kept crying and said, “You hit me,” the mother answered very angrily, “No, I didn't hit you…I kicked you.” I've never forgotten that incident – it made me so sad.
I think the ability to listen is one thing that makes a good mother, to listen on several levels, the actual, and also that which is hidden and not spelled out. But that said - we all break down - I'm sure you have too. That moment when you feel you’ve hit your limit — the borderline between throwing your kid into the wall and walking out is very thin. I have a very stubborn child. We sat not moving for 15 minutes once. He was up at the top of the stairs, and I was below the stairs. I said, “You have to come down,” he said, “No, I'm not coming down.” I was just waiting. I knew if I gave up, it would just keep continuing, this measuring of wills, you have to gently wait it out. Being a good mother, I think, is setting boundaries, so they know they can be safe within certain domains. I also think if you do have a partner/spouse, it's very important to have good communication so the child can’t go from one parent to the next, connivingly asking for the same question or demand. So having unity creates a safety net for the child. I have only one child, I would encourage everybody to have more than one - if possible. The reason is that only one child is spoiled by default. You are just always present. Karl calls, “Mom?” and I say, “Yes!” right away, I don't go, “Wait a minute, I'm occupied by your sister here, ” so, spoiled by default.
Anabella: What do you consider to be a “good artist”?
Irene: hm – a good artist - that depends if you mean according to society, what is commonly accepted commercially or otherwise, or a good artist for yourself. As an artist, you follow your interest, your internal self. I have always argued, mostly in my teachings, that it’s the student’s responsibility to develop him/her/their self to the best of his/her/their knowledge and ability. You are endowed with these abilities and gifts- now use them, develop them. Listen to yourself. Failure for me has always been positive, giving rise to new learning, don't be afraid of failure, expand the boundaries, and take risks- explore. To be a good artist, you need to fail. I've always been interested in the border between acceptance and non-acceptance. To know what is known and explore that which is not known. If it's known already, why do it? Why spend time, energy, and money? Dance is the most, I hate to say it, unintelligent form of business I know, because you need five employees (could be more or less) to start with without having any income. The whole structure is stressful from an economic, budget, and logistic point of view. You want to pay your dancers because you want to be equitable. I used to teach like crazy just to be able to pay my dancers I took any opportunity to do that, unfortunately or fortunately admin always got paid without question. The dancer’s pay you always fought for.
I've done a lot of different operas, and small projects here and there but I have not started anything myself since Karl. The reason for that is because of the logistics of it all. In my very active days, I used to talk to Europe in the morning, then I warmed up and rehearsed, and after rehearsal, I dealt with the US community including grants, etc. in the late afternoon or evenings. I don't have that time or energy now as I am getting older, even though I find getting older is interesting and enjoyable. My energy level is not the same, it's a different kind of energy that you use. It is not less – it is just different. Even though the experience of dancing is different, carries with it a clarity of sorts. There were a lot of reasons I did not go back into production again. Like the logistics: getting the grant applications out, renting studios, figuring out a rehearsal, figuring out Karl, all of that. As you expressed it Anabelle “it was a mess.” I applaud you for bringing Legos, etc. because that's an extra thing to carry since you don't have a permanent studio. You become nomadic, a mule in the workforce.
Anabella: That's exactly what it is. That's why I am so grateful to CPR (Center for Performance Research), I live 5 blocks away. The space was a refuge for me.
Irene: So great for you! I remember it was even hard for me to take the stroller around. Getting that stroller up and down the subway stairs ––sometimes I’d walk the Brooklyn Bridge from Tribeca to home instead of taking the subway The idea of carrying the stroller, Karl, all the packing - all of that- up and down-it was too much.
Anabella: We carry so many things that are physical, but we also carry emotional aspects, some of us feel guilty. When we are in rehearsal, we are not with the family. When we are with our family, we are not in rehearsal. I know that you've been part of the Bessie Awards committee. I am also now and I'm going out four times a week and I feel guilty leaving my family. I leave everything prepared, all the tables are set, the food is in the oven, and everything is ready, but one part of me is thinking, what am I doing with my life? I have to fulfill my duty in my career and as a mother, but it’s a lot. How was this guilty feeling for you in your process?
Irene: I think we are still living in such a patriarchal society, even though we try and claim to be equal. When I say that I live in a very conservative relationship compared to others, growing up in socialist Sweden, it's conservative in the way that I mostly take care of the home, laundry, cleaning, and most shopping, and John takes care of the bills, construction projects at home, garbage, and insurance. Our minds work differently, two different ways of thinking, how to systematize, like billing or organizing things. We tried to split it more equally, but it did not work, therefore, through the years it has taken this old-fashioned turn depending on our skills and time. Sometimes, I love caretaking though. It makes me wonder about myself – as a mother – also as a woman, what it is, what it means, what it does, are we genetically programmed for care. I find it hard to decipher what is what in some way. The mother, the woman, the artist, the now, the then – and what it carries with it into the future.
I started thinking about it a long time ago and I don't really know. I didn't get anywhere because –– is it something archival within us as mothers, just as it is in animals? Do we have this DNA or imprint? I was very happy when Karl went to college. I found I was relieved because then I could return to myself. That did not mean I did not love him. I felt it was good for him to have his own life. To not be so dependent on home, but instead fulfill himself in many ways. When Karl comes home now, I still get into my mom mode, I worry about him. I wonder what he will eat. Has he done his laundry? I kind of check up on him and even when I go out, my thoughts are with him, when he is home – so yes, I am glad he left for college. I talked with other mothers about this. His room is left in a mess, that’s me, not my husband, who cleans it up. It's also very funny with Karl and the different types of texts we get. With me, I get texts saying he wants to go to Mexico, but with my husband, it’s I need to pay this, and can I have gas for the car? Already, at such a young age, it's a split in our roles in what we do. It’s because of us of course, we have those roles in our households, so we’ve carried it over onto him but it’s also supported by our society at large.
Anabella: How would you define what it is to be female?
Irene: I don't know what it means to be female, but I do think it matters where we grow up no matter what you identify yourself as. I think the relation social, culture and nature matters, and even though you are where you are now, your original culture is imprinted within you - as it is with me. As I grow older also, oh my God, I can feel how I’m turning into my mom as time goes by. The female in society has changed, but it hasn't changed enough and I'm not quite sure what that means. What is a male? What is a female? What is gender or non-gender? Or them and they? These are very big questions that must be asked within our biology and society. I do think that the psyche is part of the realm of biology and that it influences how we develop as humans. We’re talking about Western society, I don't even know what it is in Africa, India, or any other countries. Some of the other countries have stronger original divisions within their societies especially when it comes to men and women. But here, I am talking about the Western culture, which of course also carries with it many other cultures within. That means then, thinking of the female, that we must value the work at home, the invisible work. The non-paid worker needs to be valued more. Our society needs to change its value system. I do think because the caretaker at home usually is a woman, of course, it could be a man too, the denial of worthiness or merit persists even though it is such a necessity. Sweden has a lot of men staying home during the child’s first year because we have child relief pay regardless of gender identity, but that said, the majority are still women. The patriarchal hierarchy is still strong. There are not that many women who are in the highest decision-making positions, and we still have a salary difference between men and women. It is just one of our big issues, and it's going to take a long time to change, but I hope we are on the way.
I just can’t get over the whole abortion thing –– are you kidding me? Why don't you have the men pay a fine or be put in jail for every impregnated woman? The men are totally absent in this discussion. The women are always targeted. When this started happening, it was very alarming. I was nervous. I felt as if this was just the tip of the iceberg. I thought that they were going to start with the women, then they'll go to the gay community, BIPOC community, etc., and back to segregated schools again. It’s a downward slide. It’s so violent right now – globally. We haven't lived with this kind of violence for a long time in the Western sphere – of course, historically we have. The dream of democracy has changed and as humans, we are changing.
Anabella: Can you talk about how we have our own countries that we come from? So as a mother, I'm curious about your land and how you transmitted things to your son.
Irene: Oh, he loved Sweden- still does. We have been there several times both for work and for family visits. I used to go home every summer. I did not transmit anything consciously, but I am sure just by being there within my own culture with my habits, plus the language in itself - the unconscious transference is unavoidable. It’s a lot he loves about Sweden. The surroundings and the landscape are filled with hills and woods. Everything is a little smaller and you feel more comforted and in control or perhaps embedded in nature in some way. You understand the surroundings better, so he loves it. Working with the operas, the different music, and different historical settings, I think helped solidify his impressions.
I grew up in a very small steelworkers' town. My sister has two children in the same age group, so we were there a lot swimming in the lake. visited pig farms, ostrich farms, campsites and playing with my sister’s kids in the local river – all is memorable – even for me We did the Swedish thing with the lemonade and cardamom rolls by the lakeside, and he turned his whole being into Swedish for a short while. It has a time limit though – everyone grows up and the objectives change.
In my work with the different operas, way up north in Umeå, Norrlands Operan, and at the Royal Opera in Stockholm – driving through the landscape also gave him his impressions. The one most memorable was Drottningholms Operan from the 17th century. They still have all the scenery left from that time period, the audible cranking, old floor, walls, the size of everything, it's just gorgeous. Karl experienced all of that, and while working we lived on a horse farm. It was amazing. I'm sure he has all that imagery and sensing memory from that time in Sweden. I did not “mother” Swedish, but I made something else available for him. Then he had his relationship with my mom, she did not speak English just a few words, so every summer he learned something else from her.
Here at home in Brooklyn, Karl is mixed race, African American and Caucasian, he started identifying as black in second grade. I still remember the playgrounds in our neighborhood, a lot of blond girls playing, often coming up to Karl poking him, and being cute and pinching him as children do. He takes it and he is patient but then loses his patience and reacts physically back to the girls. The girls usually cried and went back to their nannies who then accusingly came up to me – and did not believe that their girls started it. I just sensed it had something to do with his brown skin. I’ve felt that a lot in the playgrounds, the discrimination against him at a very early age – and we are talking about 2-5 years old. It's so subliminal if you are not attentive to it. Another time Karl was up on a monkey bar platform with a bunch of kids, and one child fell, pushed out unintendedly by another kid. Fell to the ground luckily unhurt, but they all looked at Karl as if it was his fault – it was not – I saw it. But small experiences like that taught me a lot. It was very interesting to me having a biracial child growing up here in New York. In second grade, at the school playground, the older black kids instead embraced Karl, they were like, “Come on bro, over here bro,” protecting him and including him. And since then, he has identified himself as black. It’s very understandable.
Anabella: That’s why the kids teach us so much. They teach us how to deal as a human being with basic emotions. You mentioned your mom. This choreographic project is “Listen to your mother.” What are some of the things that you have listened to your mother on or haven’t listened to?
Irene: My mother was happy at home, it was her domain, she took care of things, ran the household. One memory that is dear to me is how she never questioned my desire to stay home and miss school due to my stomach aches -had a lot of them early on- we are talking first to third grade here. I do think it was pure nerves on my part – I just had a fear of going to school and she listened – perhaps she even understood. She said, “That's fine, that's fine,” then she took me out into town, to a café where we sat eating buns and had a good time. The care in listening, not questioning but entrusting in what I said to her I try to follow with Karl. I like to give him that support. It's about supporting and not mistrusting in that sense.
What is harder for me is that she's a very scared person, and she has a hard time communicating. If I came home and was upset, she couldn't talk about it. She shoved food in my face or started humming and singing. A sort of “everything is fine or will be fine” kind of deal. I guess those are the things that I don't follow. I love her, as we all love our moms, but early on our roles changed, I was her mom more than she was my mom. I was the one to give advice be strong and take care if difficulties arose.
I do like my husband's mom Jo, who was also a home caretaker but very different – I learned from her as well. As in families from that time period the male is the center, my husband's dad, Mario, was an Italian immigrant with a difficult upbringing, he emigrated to the US escaping Mussolini at 16 years old. So, within his own American family, he ruled quite solo, with a good heart but stern, when Mario wanted to eat, we had to eat, and everybody followed Mario. And Jo, who is super smart and caring followed but with an uber sense. I was impressed with her as she took care of all the family’s finances, read the paper every day, and was a terrific listener with a lot of love to give. She had the best smile. She was somebody that I felt I could go to discuss things and share femaleness. She is that for me. She's there as a symbol of womanhood for me, and that gives me warmth. She turned one hundred years old this year on the 23rd of December. I really like her a lot. I believe in this shared femaleness, and that is something I can communicate to my son. I am very comfortable around females.
Once, I had a friend who was a journalist. I had to write about a lesbian bar here in New York, and I was sitting there and wondering why I was so comfortable, and then I realized it was all women. I was very comfortable because it was all female. I love working with females, and I also mostly follow female choreographers and their work. I think femaleness is something very deep within me somehow. I don't know why. I feel I share history when I'm with females, past and possibly future, but it’s more than just a one-on-one relationship, so to speak. We share consciousness in some way. I guess motherhood is part of that femaleness.
Anabella: I agree. That's why for me, having a boy and a girl is two different environments. With my daughter, we understand each other. There’s something in the communication that is completely different and how we trust each other. It’s something I don’t need to teach her, femaleness comes naturally. Do you think choreographically, you talked about your choices and your tastes, that you prefer female choreographers? How, choreographically speaking, is your work informed by this? What are you aware of regarding this feminine side of you in the choreography?
Irene: Well, I am not aware of that side in my choreographic work, I can say. I was more interested in what was inside my head. I wanted to see what was inside. I did choreographic work before I joined Trisha Brown Company, but after leaving Trisha, the desire to work intensified – I guess it had grown while with Trisha as well since I really never stopped creating. But, after TB I needed some research time, also for my self-confidence. I gave myself five pieces to fail, in order to get rid of the Trisha Brown residue, her bodily imprint on my body so to say. I love abstraction or abstract narrative or narrative abstractions-that is my thing rather than a straight linear story. I was inspired by Trisha’s trilogies, which I started to do. I started with fairytales. I have always been interested in fairy tales, their stories, representations, and image-producing capacities, as well as visual arts, and theoretical and narrative texts. I had just worked on some small phrases in a school on 8th street, in one of the studios. I did not know what they were but on the airplane to Sweden I listened to Jack Nicholson reading Billy Goat Gruff and I realized that was what I was working on - Billy Goat Gruff. My first Trilogy was formed – on fairytales - the others were Little Red Riding Hood, ”Red Cap,” and Beauty and the Beast, “Beauty and The Beast: Six Beauties,” with Visual Artist Petah Coyne. That led me to music. I was interested in the blues since Sweden is so melancholic, and I am too nostalgic, too melancholic as well, then Tango ( Finland has Tango but that did not resonate with me) and Swedish folk music with live fiddlers from Sweden. Maybe that is the femaleness in my work.
Anabella: Talking about mothers, I'm thinking about what kind of citizens I raise because I'm not American. I became American because I had to after the Trump election. My husband is American, but for me, it's important. Who are the next generation of Americans we are raising? What is their point of view? How do people look at Americans? So how do you deal with this with your son?
Irene: …and I became a citizen so I could vote for Obama…but something that I never understood even from the beginning coming here is the weakly funded school system, the gun laws, and the violent cartoons for children in the sense that you cannot show a naked human body, but you can show somebody shoot off a head and the blood spurts.
Yes …how do you raise the next generation? Today it’s you and all the social media with gaming etc. Plus, you do rely on other human beings. Thinking of Karl’s high school search – he was not given a school in the first round so we went to the second. This experience was kind of bizarre since in the second round there were all minority children – almost all the schools left that we visited for Karl had metal detectors - crazy. Anyhow – there was a counselor in the second round that we visited and talked to and after hearing our story she said “Great, I'm going to manually plug him in, but it can't happen until July.” He was accepted into our local high school thanks to this woman, and it saved our lives, it changed our landscape at home. But what I am saying is, that you must be such an advocate for your child, but also you cannot do it alone. I am just so deeply concerned about the lack of opportunities for some. There are so many minds wasted. Well, how you see America is a much bigger question.
Anabella: Do you think becoming a mother affected the way that you choreographed?
Irene: I don't really know how to answer that because, for me, age changes choreography more than the child. The older I get my concerns change, and I can't say that having a child will make me more generous artistically or otherwise. I do think about my age in a positive way, that is, because every decade, I feel a physical, emotional, and psychic change. It usually starts to take place three years before the change of decade, like now I'm 67, and I am sensing a change as in preparing for my 70s somehow. Perhaps it is just me - how I see life and time and relations - we are in a profession of time and space – perhaps that matters - I appreciate the changes. With children though you learn to be effective. Your time is limited and that affects your work and productivity.
Anabella: Your husband is American?
Irene: Yes, he's American. He's of Italian heritage but American from Portland – a visual artist. We are lucky to have a house now – it was crazy before - I was renting a studio and he was renting a studio, and then we had a rented apartment so when the opportunity came up that we could –– because of a slight inheritance and one of my grants –– we could put down a down payment - we got the house. It saved us – it still does. I am very grateful. He has a studio on the ground floor – I still have to rent studio space – we dancers need more- space, a good floor, heat, etc. Raising a child, my studio rental was the first to go – hard economically and logistically. I was the one who was with Karl all the time. People in my neighborhood thought I was a single mom, meanwhile, in the dance world, they didn’t even know I had a child. I still need to have my solitary studio space. I remember how I felt when Karl turned four years old, I could actually have a conversation with somebody else. I didn't get interrupted all the time.
Anabella: Would you like to add anything else?
Irene: A thought that came up while thinking about studio space or rather the lack of studio and work opportunities while raising Karl- is that I started to study – I did my Masters. The reason why I did it was because I missed the studio. The research, hunger for knowledge, or the ‘hunting for” that one has as an artist, was still there. So, instead, I researched by studying. I found another way of expressing myself and gained insight into some kind of other world, which I’m still continuing, exploring, expanding, and being part of. I received a BA from Empire State College first and then I did my MA in American Studies, at CUNY Graduate Center (GC), which changed my life.
Right now, I have my home life, I have my dance life, I have my academic life.
My big mentor is Patricia Ticineto Clough, at GC. With her I studied Contemporary Feminist Studies, The Social and the Psyche, etc., then she retired but André Lepecki managed to have her teach Performance Studies at NYU which a few of us were invited to audit for a couple of years – it was good times – now she teaches the candidates at Institute for Contemporary Psychology. I discovered theory through my dancing and my experience making work and performing – the theory put words onto my sensing and explorations. I still like Alfred North Whitehead and Bergson among many others.
Iréne Hultman is native of Sweden and a NY based choreographer, performer and educator. Her current research interest is how media, affect and speculative theories influence movement and art production. Ms. Hultman has choreographed several opera productions, received commissions, and participated in artistic collaboration with both individuals and institutions She has toured extensively with her own company and as a former member and rehearsal Director of Trisha Brown Dance Company. She is a recipient of grants and awards including the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation Fellowship and a Foundation for Contemporary Performance Arts Award. She is currently involved in the global discourse of dance and performance and continues to foster her interests in research and collaborations between artistic fields and across continents. Ms. Hultman is a former member of The Bessie Committee and currently on the Artist Advisory Board at Danspace Project and serves as faculty in Theater and Performance Studies at Yale University.
Anabella Lenzu: Originally from Argentina, Anabella Lenzu is a dancer, choreographer, scholar & educator with over 30 years of experience working in Argentina, Chile, Italy, and the USA. Lenzu directs her own company, Anabella Lenzu/DanceDrama (ALDD), which since 2006 has presented 400 performances, created 15 choreographic works, and performed at 100 venues, presenting thought-provoking and historically conscious dance-theater in NYC. As a choreographer, she has been commissioned all over the world for opera, TV programs, theatre productions, and by many dance companies. She has produced and directed several award-winning short dance films and screened her work in over 200 festivals both nationally and internationally.